Smart Motorways

KennersKenners Posts: 11 [Master Traveler]
dd17178d-8ecd-4c67-b940-cb77c4d163a5.pngOn these so called Smart M/ways there are lots of cameras now normally stuck on a shelf on the left of the road. Tomtom app will tell you "Speed camera seventy miles an hour"

It should say "Speed camera, variable speed limits" Seventy is wrong in many cases as often the speed limit is dropped down.

Yours Mike.

Comments

  • AsprinAsprin Posts: 222 [Exalted Navigator]
    How would the TomTomGo do that?

    You would have to have real time data always being sent to your smartphone at all times.
    There is no way that the info being sent to your smartphone would ever keep up with what is going on at that moment in time.

    Is it not better to keep track of what the over head signs are saying. At any given time of the day the info can change correct?

    TomTom does a good job with Fixed Speed Cams and the speed that they are set to.
    The same with the mobile speed cams.

    I would be happy with just being warned of a speed cam where I was driving.

    No GPS app, stand alone unit or builtin car gps will ever be 100% correct.

    There is data delays from which tower is sending info to you too also.

    Like I said looking up at the info from the over head signs is your best bet seeing that they can change at anytime.
  • NiallNiall Posts: 10,548 Superuser
    Here is a link to a good description of what these cameras are about https://www.speedcamerasuk.com/variable-speed-cameras.htm

    Though these 'Smart' cameras are only deployed in the UK at the moment, I suspect other countries will soon follow suite; so TomTom had better think of an appropriate announcement for them ;)

    Something on the lines of "Variable speed camera ahead, check for displayed limit"
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  • dmulvdmulv Posts: 608 Superuser
    Asprin624 wrote:
    How would the TomTomGo do that?

    You would have to have real time data always being sent to your smartphone at all times.
    I think the point being made was that the declaration of a 70mph speed limit in a variable zone is misleading, in the sense that more often than not the limit would be lower (at least during rush-hour periods). So if it doesn't know what the limit is when in a variable zone, it should report accordingly.

    I don't think for a second Kenners was suggesting TomTom should know real-time speed limits in such areas.
  • AsprinAsprin Posts: 222 [Exalted Navigator]
    I read what the UK has:

    Holland has something like the UK has along with Belgium.

    Now if you are going to drive in the morning there is nothing but traffic.
    In most cases it is stop and go.

    The same with the evening traffic lots of stop and go.

    Lots of over head signs also show you that there has been an accident ahead some where up ahead of you.

    Then there is also your radio telling you road problems if you have that option turned on.

    As I do not use my GPS app or stand alone unit for every time I drive it is a lot simpler to just pay attention to the info being broadcasted over head or along side of the road.

    Having a GPS app hold your hand every time you drive is a little bit of a waste of time.

    You know what you are running into when you are driving all week back and forth to work.

    You know where all the speed cams are including where a mobile speed cam sometimes are.

    Then to have your GPS app always telling you wait the speed limit has changes I do not see that happening at all.

    Driving safe and paying attention to the cars, truck and buses around you is far more impotent then taking your eyes off the road to look at the GPS screen and what the speed limit is at that moment.

    And I have been driving for a very long time both in the USA and in Europe.
  • dmulvdmulv Posts: 608 Superuser
    I think you're missing the point a little.

    All that's being said is if the GPS app is going to be issuing warnings concerning speed limits for a variable speed limit zone, then it would be a good idea to reflect that fact in the message being given (rather than one that's likely to be incorrect). Something like a '20-70' icon rather than '70'.

    Regarding our reliance on the GPS vs. looking outside at road signs, traffic, etc. is a whole different (albeit very valid) argument, however I don't think it's relevant in the scope of this post. In this context it's a bit like saying 'well you should be looking at the signs' in answer to a complaint of the GPS labelling London as Birmingham.
  • SpringsSprings Posts: 26 [Master Explorer]
    I agree with Mike that the warning about variable speed limit cameras needs to be different to the standard fixed speed limit cameras.
    Perhaps a warning side-bar could be used with an appropriate label in the same way that zones using average speed cameras are highlighted? This would provide a handy reminder without having to announce each camera on a section of road with a variable speed limit.
  • AsprinAsprin Posts: 222 [Exalted Navigator]
    How many more options are needed to be added to TomTomGo to justify going over the speed limit and not being caught?

    e792449c-0828-45c4-b674-81c97aade14b.jpg
  • dmulvdmulv Posts: 608 Superuser
    OK... I'll try again :slight_smile:

    The issue isn't the ability of the app to notify you of speed limits. It isn't about expecting a live data feedback from the overhead gantries to tell the app the current limit. It isn't the principal of people relying too much on their sat nav and not looking outside.

    The issue is that the speed limit being advertised - as a fixed 70mph - is inaccurate, as the limit can vary from 20mph to 70mph. So it's being suggested that the speed limit advertised reflects that. Maybe keep the over-speeding warnings at 70mph, but just change the label to 20-70mph as I suggested. Or some other verbal/visual warning that it's a variable speed limit section of the road.
  • AsprinAsprin Posts: 222 [Exalted Navigator]
    @dmulv,

    I understand what you are saying.:thinking::nerd:

    But the proof in the pudding is that 80 to 95 % of the road is 70 which is fixed country wide. If there is a static sign posted say 50 it is in those area that are Exits etc. Those are also fixed and the GPS screen reflects that info.

    Now what you and others want is to show label to 20-70mph.

    But this is only in certain times of the day. When most of the day it is 70 which is fixed.

    TomTom servers would have to check ever local traffic center to get these updates and let the user know it could be a variable speed area at this moment in timer.

    So it depends on what time the local traffic control is sending out this info if they are even broadcasting this info for TomTom servers to pick it up.

    Then what time TomTom servers are picking this info up also would come into play.

    Then sending this info to said cars in the area being effected by it.

    Now we already see that there is traffic in this area on the screen as we get closer to it.

    Then there is the problem of traffic info falling out from time to time as many of the users have reported.

    So again I can not see TomTom changing the map to reflect that depending what timer of day a person is driving to show label to 20-70mph in the variable speed area when most of the time it is fixed at 70.

    There are too many player involved for this to work correctly at any given time.

    Getting all the local traffic control area to send out this info if they want to do this.
    Getting TomTom to deal with connecting to the local traffic control centers to get this info if they even want to deal with it.
    So they can pass it on to a user in the area being effected by the change in speed.

    So now we are talking about cost from both the government and TomTom or any other GPS app that would want to deal with this.

    And more so passing on the cost to the end user who is already not happy with what it cost per year to have all the services only to have it fall out from time to time.

    But I do understand what you are saying dmulv.
  • dmulvdmulv Posts: 608 Superuser
    Asprin624 wrote:
    Now what you and others want is to show label to 20-70mph.

    But this is only in certain times of the day. When most of the day it is 70 which is fixed.

    TomTom servers would have to check ever local traffic center to get these updates and let the user know it could be a variable speed area at this moment in timer.

    So it depends on what time the local traffic control is sending out this info if they are even broadcasting this info for TomTom servers to pick it up.
    ...but it's not time-of-day dependant, it's traffic-flow dependant. The variable speed limit is in effect 24hrs a day. If there's bad traffic then the limit's reduced, regardless of time - be it 5pm or 3am.

    I repeat - It isn't about expecting a live data feedback from the overhead gantries to tell the app the current limit.

    No-one would expect there to be a live link between the gantry -> traffic control -> TomTom's servers -> TomTom app (although that would be cool to have :slight_smile:).

    The variable limit areas are fixed stretches of road - for example between junctions 7 and 19 on the M25. They're also in effect all day and all night. In that aspect, this is fixed information that's never going to change (well, at least until the next map update).

    So wouldn't it be a good idea to advise the driver of this? In terms of TomTom supporting this, theoretically it would just require a new category of speed limit to be embedded into the map, and a couple of UI changes.

    (although admittedly I'm saying that at the risk of infuriating TomTom's developers)
  • AsprinAsprin Posts: 222 [Exalted Navigator]
    Lets say TomTom adds this info to their app.

    You get the warning on the screen of label to 20-70mph as everyone has asked for.

    Now you still do not know what the real sped limit is because it is posting on the screen label 20-70mph correct?

    So the next thing one has to do is look up and read what the real speed limit on the overhead sign is broadcasting at the moment and time.

    Correct??

    Posting on the screen that it could be anywhere between 20 to 70mph does not make any logical sense whats so ever......
  • dmulvdmulv Posts: 608 Superuser
    It's more the lesser of two evils...
    • A vague speed limit indication in an area where the speed limit could vary from 20mph to 70mph, or
    • A specific limit of 70mph indicated in an area whereby it could in fact be 20mph
    I'd personally prefer the speed indication to be vaguely correct (albeit pretty useless) rather than it being plain wrong.
  • KennersKenners Posts: 11 [Master Traveler]
    dmulv wrote:
    Asprin624 wrote:
    I don't think for a second Kenners was suggesting TomTom should know real-time speed limits in such areas.


    Correct! Thank you :)
  • SpringsSprings Posts: 26 [Master Explorer]
    Asprin624 wrote:
    Posting on the screen that it could be anywhere between 20 to 70mph does not make any logical sense whats so ever......


    Actually it makes more sense than TomTom announcing that the speed limit is 70mph when there's a strong chance that it's less than 70mph, especially on the M25.

    The "logical" alternative is to just not bother with any type of TomTom warning for variable limit zones because of the frequency of the illuminated variable speed limit signs above each lane - this would also have the added benefit of TomTom not announcing an incorrect speed limit.

    My personal preference would be for variable speed limit zones to be treated in a similar way to average speed zones i.e. don't make a potentially incorrect warning announcement at every camera but just make a single announcement that you're entering a variable limit zone and put a warning bar on the side of the display (the same as for an average speed zone) with a "variable limit" or other suitable abbreviation instead of a specific speed.
  • AsprinAsprin Posts: 222 [Exalted Navigator]
    Just to add a little more to this topic:

    How accurate is GPS?

    It depends. GPS satellites broadcast their signals in space with a certain accuracy, but what you receive depends on additional factors, including satellite geometry, signal blockage, atmospheric conditions, and receiver design features/quality.

    GPS-enabled smartphones are typically accurate to within a 4.9 m (16 ft.) radius under open sky. However, their accuracy worsens near buildings, bridges, and trees.


    Now look at the screen shot:

    Do I get the warning in the 2 right lanes also?
    Or just in the 2 left lanes that are broadcasted info?

    Seeing that accurate now would come into play.

    Getting to many warning that are not need is not good also.

    941fed13-0ffc-4470-8c0e-f5620e3ad115.jpg
  • NiallNiall Posts: 10,548 Superuser
    @Asprin624

    That is why I suggested that the announcement should be on the lines of
    "Variable speed camera ahead, check for displayed limit"

    Making NO reference to an actual speed limit
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  • John-JayJohn-Jay Posts: 609 [Exalted Navigator]
    Asprin624 wrote:
    Lets say TomTom adds this info to their app.
    ?????

    Sorry, but I can't see any Post where someone is suggesting adding anything!!

    All they are suggesting is that TomTom should NOT be providing INCORRECT information! It is clearly INCORRECT when TomTom states there is a 70mph Limit/Camera when it could be variable.

    As far as I'm concerned, TomTom should NOT be giving False/Incorrect information - either change it to indicate that it is "Variable" or DON'T indicate anything!

    Regards,

    John-Jay

  • NiallNiall Posts: 10,548 Superuser
    Niall wrote:
    .......
    Though these 'Smart' cameras are only deployed in the UK at the moment, I suspect other countries will soon follow suite; so TomTom had better think of an appropriate announcement for them ;)
    .......
    @John-Jay I think @Asprin624 was referring to the above
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  • dmulvdmulv Posts: 608 Superuser
    Springs wrote:
    My personal preference would be for variable speed limit zones to be treated in a similar way to average speed zones i.e. don't make a potentially incorrect warning announcement at every camera but just make a single announcement that you're entering a variable limit zone and put a warning bar on the side of the display (the same as for an average speed zone) with a "variable limit" or other suitable abbreviation instead of a specific speed.
    The only problem with this is there's not always a camera over every gantry enforcing the limit. For example, a variable speed limit is in operation on the M25 between junctions 6 and 16, however between junctions 6 and 10 there are only 2 speed cameras (then it's over every gantry).
  • KennersKenners Posts: 11 [Master Traveler]
    dmulv wrote:
    Springs wrote:
    My personal preference would be for variable speed limit zones to be treated in a similar way to average speed zones i.e. don't make a potentially incorrect warning announcement at every camera but just make a single announcement that you're entering a variable limit zone and put a warning bar on the side of the display (the same as for an average speed zone) with a "variable limit" or other suitable abbreviation instead of a specific speed.
    The only problem with this is there's not always a camera over every gantry enforcing the limit. For example, a variable speed limit is in operation on the M25 between junctions 6 and 16, however between junctions 6 and 10 there are only 2 speed cameras (then it's over every gantry).



    And they move them about, won`t always find same camera in same place.

    You may also find it is often the case MIDAS gets it wrong. Left lane in the picture is set to 50 MPH the rest to 40 MPH, only problem was Lane one was almost at a standstill. Not as smart as they like to let us know. What happens if you are crossing lane doing 50? From lane one to two just at the wrong moment :) This is one area downgraded to Smart-Motorways.

    I am sure all will be pleased to know "The main construction will start in late May 2018 and is scheduled to begin at Junction 13 and head northwards. We plan to use phased working to reduce the length of roadworks along the scheme and the timescales for completing the scheme. This means that there will not be 37.9km of roadworks for the duration of construction. Full overnight closures of the motorway will only be used when necessary and we share information on full closures as soon as they are confirmed." More here! http://roads.highways.gov.uk/projects/m1-junction-13-to-junction-16-smart-motorway/ 642980fc-d690-4506-8f03-3803dbb4239a.jpg
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