Multisports- Current pace vs average pace completely off - Page 8 — TomTom Community

Multisports- Current pace vs average pace completely off

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  • cfitch13cfitch13 Posts: 2 [Apprentice Traveler]
    I too am having issues with pace. I didn't realize it exactly right away as I never took the time to really compare pace with another measuring device, but now I'm convinced. This mornings run showed I was running a 10:30 when my average pace showed at 11:30+ once the details were transferred to my app. I agree... this is a MAJOR glitch and needs to be fixed. There's no use for a pace watch to interval train with if it's not actually PACING! Please fix TomTom.
  • tfarabaughtfarabaugh Posts: 16,677
    Superusers
    cfitch13 wrote:
    I too am having issues with pace. I didn't realize it exactly right away as I never took the time to really compare pace with another measuring device, but now I'm convinced. This mornings run showed I was running a 10:30 when my average pace showed at 11:30+ once the details were transferred to my app. I agree... this is a MAJOR glitch and needs to be fixed. There's no use for a pace watch to interval train with if it's not actually PACING! Please fix TomTom.

    Average pace has never been an issue with the watch, the comments on this post are related to so-called instant pace. Average pace at the end of an activity is simply time/distance and it is hard to get it wrong it is simple math You can check the ,math yourself, just divide the total minutes by the total miles, which will give you a pace in decimal format. Take the decimal and multiply by 60 to get time pace. (i.e. 60 min. / 7 mi. = 8.57; .57 x 60 = 34, so the pace is 8:34). What you may be seeing is the instant pace not showing accurately when you run, but you were actually running at an 11:30 pace as the final data is correct.
  • cfitch13cfitch13 Posts: 2 [Apprentice Traveler]
    Yes, I was running counting on my instant pace thinking I was running a 10:30, but then later saw the avg pace was 11:30 so something wasn't adding up. My issue is with the instant pace.
  • theRattheRat Posts: 99 [Prominent Wayfarer]
    It is truly sad that TomTom have never even tried to address this major flaw. They haven't even acknowledged that there is a problem. It would be nice if someone from TomTom would pay attention. I thread with close to 180 posts should be ringing alarm bells for them.
  • chrissnnchrissnn Posts: 8 [Legendary Explorer]
    I sold my Tomtom cardio and bought a garmin. It works great ;)
  • btt128btt128 Posts: 76 [Prominent Wayfarer]
    I am about to go down that route. Can you confirm the instant pace on garmin is better?
  • OldbirchOldbirch Posts: 2 [Apprentice Traveler]
    I found the same in a recent 10mile race. I was trying to keep a steady pace but in face was running far too slowly. Was wondering why everyone was passing me but I was worried about running too quickly at the beginning (my first 10 miler). The data recorded in the spread sheet is correct, but what displays on the watch is way off. I'm very disappointed. Best not to have the feature at all than have it be incorrect. Other than this and the weird extra lap recordings, this watch has suited me very well, especially for the price.
  • Peterson_FreitasPeterson_Freitas Posts: 2 [Apprentice Traveler]
    Unfortunately In TT the instant pace is terrible.
  • btt128btt128 Posts: 76 [Prominent Wayfarer]
    I agree.
    But is this a feature of all GPS watches, or are others better?
    I am finding the tomtom unusable as a pace tool, think I am going to have to ditch it. Have no idea why this bug/feature is still here.
  • tfarabaughtfarabaugh Posts: 16,677
    Superusers
    btt128 wrote:
    I agree.
    But is this a feature of all GPS watches, or are others better?
    I am finding the tomtom unusable as a pace tool, think I am going to have to ditch it. Have no idea why this bug/feature is still here.

    It is a feature of all GPS watches to varying degrees. There is a balance between smoothness and lag, the smoother you want the data the more time lag there is going to be. TT definitely sided on the side of smoothness, so it is slow to react to change. In my experience Garmins tend to be too jumpy (not enough smoothness, but little lag) and Suuntos tend to be right in the middle (the best of the bunch). I do not think TT considers it a bug, it is simply the choice they made. They have refined it a bit and for many people there is not a perceived issue, but for others it is still a frustration. At two years into the development cycle I would not expect to see much change as I have to imagine they are looking towards their next model. Looking at the industry standard for product releases, they are behind (Garmin and Suunto are basically a new device every year).
  • mantababemantababe Posts: 7 [Master Explorer]
    so glad to see these comments as ive been struggling for a while to maintain a pace. only been running since march so not long and am a slow runner. but this is what happens [i have the TT cardio] i warm up very easy jog around 16miles/min. then go for a faster rate around 12/13/m/min however, it takes ages for my watch to change my pace....even tho i know i am running faster. eventually maybe over 3mins it might drop down, and i try and maintain tht pace but maybe i might slow down and i mean slow down yet my pace will still show something like 13miles/min. it is really hard to learn what my pacing is like.

    on my run today i did quite a bit of experiment, ie after a run of around 13/m/min i very very slowly jogged [just faster than a walk] it took well over 3 mins for it to go up to 15. miles/min yet another time i do tht speed and its at 16/17. then i sped up and it was ages before it showed i was going faster, by this time im getting out of breath as im trying to hit a pace of 12 m/min

    this is really not helping me improve my running
  • gl00gl00 Posts: 965 [Revered Pioneer]
    hey mantababe :

    since you are starting running, did you try run/walk intervals ? these go like "run 2mn walk 1mn for n amount of repeats" (search the web or ask a coach for a plan, there are plenty of training programs available for all levels of runners)

    - I noticed that with the the tomtom watch, the greater the difference between 2 different paces, the more reactive it is at detecting the change of pace so I think you'd get better results when learning your running paces. when I do my running intervals, it takes less than 30s for the watch to go from 7mn/km to 3mn/km, so hopefully this would improve the watch accuracy to an acceptable level (I too get very slow pace updates if I increase my pace only slightly)

    - also, run/walk intervals are great when it comes to gradually teaching your body to maintain a higher HR for a longer amount of time while not stressing your body too much. The more you'll do these trainings, the more your aerobic capacity will improve, hence your capacity to maintain an effort for a longer period of time. It is usually less exhausting to train like this when you start and increase the amout of time you spend running gradually. You'll get faster results this way than through continuously running at a given pace!
  • gaspachogaspacho Posts: 1 [Apprentice Traveler]
    I just upgraded from my old Runner to the new Runner Cardio and the pace on the new watch is badly off. I ran with one on each arm yesterday and they are very different. Cardio seems to lag badly behind the Runner.
    Please tell me this is a software glitch that the guys at Tomtom are working on!?
  • theRattheRat Posts: 99 [Prominent Wayfarer]
    gaspacho wrote:
    Please tell me this is a software glitch that the guys at Tomtom are working on!?

    I doubt that TomTom are doing anything to address this! As of today (5 Dec 2015) this thread is exactly 2 years old and TomTom have done absolutely Zero, Zilch, Nada! The support is terrible, the only bugs that get fixed are ones that TomTom think will affect sales. For this reason I personally will never purchase another TomTom product in my life.
  • tallon777tallon777 Posts: 3 [Neophyte Traveler]
    I also feel that there it is not just the smoothness, but that there is actually a glitch in the instant pace. Today did a 5.5km race. Looked at my watched often and instant pace was never higher then 4.20 min/km. Then then the average pace at the end was 4.23 min/km. The pace graph on the website does NOT seem to be the instant paces that are displayed on the watch. Of course I didn't look at the watch constantly but I feel this happens in every run. I just adapt thinking my instant pace is actually slower then the one displayed. Don't think I will buy TomTom again as this seems to happen to many people. Owned a Polar RC3 GPS before and instant pace was very reactive.
  • AntonFromFinlanAntonFromFinlan Posts: 28 [Outstanding Explorer]
    I rock the multisport cardio. The pace current pace seems to be quite exact. It would be interesting to know the refresh rate of instant and average pace. Is intant every 3 sec or 5 sec or every sec (gives quite different results) ? Also is average pace the real average of the total gross time or is it based on the last x km/mi ?

    However do note that if you use both phone gps and the tomtom, you will get wonky results in distance, speed and pace. The same goes if you run with a friend who has a gps watch. Due to some reason gps watches "hate" other gps devices and give bad accuracy.
    The same goes if you run really close to the sea or to a lake (probly the reflective surface of water).
  • aprince04aprince04 Posts: 1 [Apprentice Traveler]
    Fresh out of the gate and I have the same issues... bad pace readings.
    Rather than hash my experience on a recent marathon as they echo the same as others I pose a question/possible solution that I might have overlooked in reading through this thread. I had a Garmin Forerunner 610 that was spot on with pace. It had a setting that would allow you to set the GPS readings to take at 1-second intervals. I am wondering if this might be the issue with the Spark in that it is taking readings at much greater intervals and averaging them giving the responses that are noted here. If so, could that be remedied by TomTom? I would think it would have an influence on the battery life but make it a user option if that is the concern. I am disappointed to a point of sending this back and looking back to Garmin. I really want to like this watch and really want to keep it. but....Also of note of the many, many reviews I read before switching this was not mentioned. It was only after I searched for "TomTom Spark Pace" that I found this crucial issue.
    My thoughts.
  • tfarabaughtfarabaugh Posts: 16,677
    Superusers
    aprince04 wrote:
    Fresh out of the gate and I have the same issues... bad pace readings.
    Rather than hash my experience on a recent marathon as they echo the same as others I pose a question/possible solution that I might have overlooked in reading through this thread. I had a Garmin Forerunner 610 that was spot on with pace. It had a setting that would allow you to set the GPS readings to take at 1-second intervals. I am wondering if this might be the issue with the Spark in that it is taking readings at much greater intervals and averaging them giving the responses that are noted here. If so, could that be remedied by TomTom? I would think it would have an influence on the battery life but make it a user option if that is the concern. I am disappointed to a point of sending this back and looking back to Garmin. I really want to like this watch and really want to keep it. but....Also of note of the many, many reviews I read before switching this was not mentioned. It was only after I searched for "TomTom Spark Pace" that I found this crucial issue.
    My thoughts.

    TT uses one second readings (this can be confirmed by creating a CSV or TCX for an activity and opening it in Excel where you can see that there is an entry for each second). The pace issues are related to poor algorithms by TT. They use too long of a lag to get a smooth reading, which makes it less responsive to changes in pace, particularly large changes. They have been tweaking it over the years and it seems to work better for some then others, but If this is a vital feature for you and you are within your return period you may want to look at other devices that offer this option now. I would not count on it coming, you need to make your decision based on the features that are currently offered, and not what may come in the future.
  • A.AA.A Posts: 10 [Legendary Explorer]
    Wow! Over 2 years and still no resolution to this issue...
    As a (relatively) new owner of a (relatively) new model - the spark - I was hoping it is something with the new model that will be resolved soon, but finding this thread really made me sad :(
    I have the same issue, and as a statistics-loving person (also mathematician, physicist, and a programmer), believe me I've researched this issue a bit before coming to the forum.
    It is not smoothing, and not fine-grained accuracy. I was running in LAPS mode at a constant, quite fast (for me ;-) pace between 3km and 4km, looking frequently at the "current pace", which was showing around 5:25-5:35 all the time. When the 4th km ended, it showed the "lap pace", and guess what? 4:27m/km !!!!! This phenomena is quite easily reproducible.
    My guess? some bug in taking too-long moving-averages, maybe combined with some removal of readings which are too different from the current average. But without the code, it is just a guess :o)
    Going to hassle a bit their CS dept. ; Oh yes, and also to flame a bit in Amazon/REI/other retailers

    ... and will try the 'freestyle' hack. Thanks!
  • A.AA.A Posts: 10 [Legendary Explorer]
    report: freestyle hack works like charm. A little bit embaressing... checked both while running and while driving, in freestyle speed+pace changes instantly, while in running mode I can see for long periods (tens of seconds) that the speed is half of the real speed.

    Unrelated to this subject -> while testing freestyle I got into my first 'watch hung'. Display was stuck, multi-function button doesn't work. Nothing. After 3 hours, it started functioning again, without me doing anything. Just the battery almost run out of power.

    BTW - got this from TomTom after 3 days. Didn't convince me:
    ...
    Hi its Tim from TomTom customer care thank you for your e-mail.
    I am sorry to hear of the issues you have had with the pace feature on your watch.
    Improvements to the algorithm are being worked on that will improve the pace feature, however at present there is no date when we expect these improvements to be released.
    You have stated you do not want to perform a factory reset however it may be worth trying reset and see if performance does improve.
    If you have any further queries or issues please do not hesitate to respond to this e-mail using the link below and we will be more than happy to assist you.
    ...
  • FrannyGFrannyG Posts: 1 [Apprentice Traveler]
    Love the watch but this really sucks. What use is a running watch if the current pace is totally unreliable. And absolutely shocking that TT can't be bothered to do anything about it. Garmin next time folks!
  • SimonrcroftSimonrcroft Posts: 1 [Apprentice Traveler]
    Same issue here and it seems to be getting worse the older the watch gets.
    First mile today my current pace read 6:40 for the majority then the mile flashed up as 7:11. Second mile i went faster and it read 6:30 but timed it as 6:45.
    Later in the run it reversed itself and was saying i was doing 7:08 pace and then flashed up 6:55 for the mile. Impossible to use for pacing. Time to move ro Garmin i think which is a shame as i actually quite like the watch.
  • TinoElchTinoElch Posts: 9 [Master Explorer]
    I bought my TomTom watch Nov 2015 and I still have the same experience with that new watch as all the posts here report 2 years back. I am surprised by the arrogance of TomTom which seem to ignore such a basic and central bug in their product. I bought the TomTom also due to its image of delivering good GPS products. Pace is the most important feature to see besides heart rate and distance tracking. This is sad and mad marketing by TomTom. I hope this issue becomes more public and consumers stop buying this bad product - only then the arrogance of TomTom management will change.
  • AthloniAthloni Posts: 15 [Legendary Explorer]
    Did the last update improve this irritating problem for you guys?
    I don't see it's performing better on my Multi Sports HR :(
  • tfarabaughtfarabaugh Posts: 16,677
    Superusers
    Athloni wrote:
    Did the last update improve this irritating problem for you guys?
    I don't see it's performing better on my Multi Sports HR :(

    This was not one of the things impacted in the latest update. And frankly, at this point almost 3 years on, I doubt it is going to unfortunately.
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