Multisports- Current pace vs average pace completely off - Page 6 — TomTom Community

Multisports- Current pace vs average pace completely off

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  • tfarabaughtfarabaugh Posts: 16,691
    Superusers
    hkontro wrote:

    gl00: I agree that the instant pace works better when the change in pace is big enough (although even then not always, during long workouts it seems to get stuck). But it should work well in all types of training.

    For example, the current algorithm does not work at all in these kind of workouts:

    1. Acceleration from basic pace 5:30 min/km -> 5:00 -> 4:30 -> 4:00, 1 min at each pace, then a 1 min recovery jog at basic pace. Repeated 8-15 times.

    2. Long tempo at target pace 4:30 min/km -  after running for a while, the watch does not react if you start dropping out from you target pace (running 4:45 min/km) or running too fast (4:20), but it keeps showing something like 4:32-4:28, not much different from average pace.

    Why on earth would you design an instant pace that does not display subtle changes in pace? The average pace and the lap pace are already there to tell your long-term average pace, there's not need for a "third" average pace. Everyone knows that an instant pace can be a bit jumpy at times, but it's acceptable as long as it reacts somehow to you actual acceleration/deceleration. It is not acceptable to show a long-term average pace as an instant pace.

    I gave up on TomTom Runner a long time ago and use it only for easy runs where I'm not interested in pace (or just need the average pace). For all other workouts I use my old trustworthy Garmin 210, that shows a quickly reacting instant pace.
    It really seems like the watch was designed by cyclists as it works perfectly for cycling which has more rapid pace changes.  The running and swimming modes seem more like an afterthought.
  • lucafulucafu Posts: 9 [Legendary Explorer]
    Thank your for the advice, I'll try it. But I think that a good software shouldn't need thins kind of tricks to work properly.
  • theRattheRat Posts: 99 [Prominent Wayfarer]
    I just noticed that if you select freestyle and change the main metric to display pace it both pace and avg. pace change much quicker than in the run mode (almost to quickly).

    Surely TT could easily tweak the software to make the run mode just as responsive.

    Simon
  • arrancootearrancoote Posts: 17 [Outstanding Wayfarer]
    Just another voice in the chorus of people not happy with the instant pace algorithm. From my observations it does not seem to respond anything like it should.

    Generally I am irritated by the device.

    The bike mount does not fit

    My desk dock has broken and it is difficult to charge the watch. How one of the pins could have broken off is beyond me. TomTom support stated a new one would be shipped, a month and a half ago. No dock has arrived. I just followed it up with a new support call because the first one was "Answered" apparently.

    I do not understand why there is no triathlon mode for a watch that does running, swimming ,cycling.

    No GPS in swimming

    No bike sensor in freestyle (so you can't even use freestyle on a Tri)

    The running instant pace is useless

    The screen layout is annoying, why can there not be 4 even spaced metrics displayed?

    Updates are way too slow. Has the developer quit?

    I'm now on the lookout for a Garmin. I can't sell the TomTom with it's broken charger, nor should I sell it with the number of shortcomings.
  • gl00gl00 Posts: 965 [Revered Pioneer]
    arrancoote:<BR /><BR />I can understand the watch doesn't fit your needs, but when you say you can't sell it because of the shortcomings, you seem to forget that not everyone needs the triathlon functions (I think these are the people tomtom sells the device to actually)... for a more casual practice, most your griefs against the watch are irrelevant: the bike mount fits handlebars of a smaller diameter, most have limited to no use for open water swimming, no need for a tri mode etc... and many probably won't even notice the current pace being off once in a while, which by the way none of my watches do right (v800, ambit 2s and... multisport cardio :-p! the same goes with the garmins and iphone apps I tried so far)... <BR /><BR />none are perfect, the ambit actually does the best job at it with its internal accelerometer and "predictive" pace function (it rounds up the value to the closest 5 or 15 secs whenever gps signal gives wonky values) and the tomtom does the worst job by smoothing so much I sometimes have to drastically change the pace I run at for about 30seconds in order to shake instant pace out of some zone it would be stuck in (happens mostly for runs over 1hr where I want to keep a steady pace for most of the run)... <BR />all the others simply allow pace to be wrong once in a while: I simply sort the bad values by ignoring when the display shows a crazy change of pace...
  • jordanalrawijordanalrawi Posts: 7 [Legendary Explorer]
    I am a cross-country runner in California.  I received a TomTom GPSwatch and heart monitor for my birthday.  I went on my first run with it today and as I started off down a steep hill at around a 6:15 pace my watch read a 8:27 average pace.  I ran the rest of the run with the same reading except when it changed for a second to 8:29.  I've been running long enough to know what my pace is around and not to mention to never run at a 8 minute pace on a mostly downhill and very short run.  The watch is brand new and since it costs $200 for the bundle I want to know why the simple mathematical task of mi/hr is screwed up so badly.  If anyone has any answers please let me know.
  • magnezkomagnezko Posts: 29 [Outstanding Wayfarer]
    jordanalrawi wrote:
    I am a cross-country runner in California.  I received a TomTom GPSwatch and heart monitor for my birthday.  I went on my first run with it today and as I started off down a steep hill at around a 6:15 pace my watch read a 8:27 average pace.  I ran the rest of the run with the same reading except when it changed for a second to 8:29.  I've been running long enough to know what my pace is around and not to mention to never run at a 8 minute pace on a mostly downhill and very short run.  The watch is brand new and since it costs $200 for the bundle I want to know why the simple mathematical task of mi/hr is screwed up so badly.  If anyone has any answers please let me know.
    Hmm, seeing the word "steep" reminds me that I wanted to check myself if the watch actually shows the real 3D speed (pace, distance) or a flat (2D-projected) speed as some of my downhills seemed too slow to me. But I did not yet. Does anyone know?
  • jordanalrawijordanalrawi Posts: 7 [Legendary Explorer]
    Hmm... Very interesting theory. My guess is because it has a gps and stopwatch the average pace is just simple math and projections are assuming pace is not going change. Disappointing that this math is done wrong though considering it is elementary.
  • jordanalrawijordanalrawi Posts: 7 [Legendary Explorer]
    One of the things I was wondering was whether the watch uses GPS time or not. Does anyone know?
  • tfarabaughtfarabaugh Posts: 16,691
    Superusers
    jordanalrawi wrote:
    One of the things I was wondering was whether the watch uses GPS time or not. Does anyone know?
    It does not, it uses the time off your computer or phone when you sync.
  • lucafulucafu Posts: 9 [Legendary Explorer]
    I finally sold the TomTom Multisports because of the instant pace bug.

    Yes, I call it a bug because in a gps watch current pace is the most important thing.

    I bought a Garmin Fenix 2 (second hand) and now I'm totally happy with it: instant pace works as expected, and it is very useful!! The swimming metrics (pool) are very precise and the Fenix 2 knows exactly the number of lanes I'm swimming, while the TomTom Multisports was quite inaccurate...

    I think that the TomTom cardio (the model I owned) has a good concept beyond BUT the translation to real life is lacking and buggy, TomTom must work very hard. I liked the shape (it was very confortable), the menu (really easy to use), the integrated hearth rate monitor, but while running or swimming the watch... well sucks :(

    Bye bye TomTom, hello Garmin.
  • jordanalrawijordanalrawi Posts: 7 [Legendary Explorer]
    If you haven't synced with a phone or computer, could this cause the problems with the pace? I have set the time manually on the watch. Problem is, my coach had the same model and I have used it several times with the same result. What should I do?
  • tfarabaughtfarabaugh Posts: 16,691
    Superusers
    jordanalrawi wrote:
    If you haven't synced with a phone or computer, could this cause the problems with the pace? I have set the time manually on the watch. Problem is, my coach had the same model and I have used it several times with the same result. What should I do?
    If oyu have never synced then you may have an old firmware version or an outdated GPS data file.  I would recommend syncing the watch to make sure it is fully updated and then trying it.  Running downhill will be a challenge for two reasons:  first the watch can be slow to pick up changes in pace and you are running much faster down hill; second it is based on GPS points which have a built in variance (only accurate to within 15-30 meters) and I believe it is modeling it in 2D, so two GPS points may be 50m apart on the vertical plane but 20m apart on the horizontal plane on a steep climb.  
  • jordanalrawijordanalrawi Posts: 7 [Legendary Explorer]
    Something interesting I found out this afternoon, the manufacturer doesn't send the watch with the updated software. You have to go on the website tomtom.com/gettingstarted/sports and install the software to your computer. Then you can update your watch. I don't know yet if this fixes the issue but it might. It will however take A few minutes to find the GPS signal even with 5 bars because it is trying to figure out where they all are (for later reference). Tell me if this helps
  • jordanalrawijordanalrawi Posts: 7 [Legendary Explorer]
    This will also install the latest options (for example it gave me stopwatch, airplane mode, Bluetooth, and several other assorted choices)
  • tfarabaughtfarabaugh Posts: 16,691
    Superusers
    jordanalrawi wrote:
    Something interesting I found out this afternoon, the manufacturer doesn't send the watch with the updated software. You have to go on the website tomtom.com/gettingstarted/sports and install the software to your computer. Then you can update your watch. I don't know yet if this fixes the issue but it might. It will however take A few minutes to find theGPS signal even with 5 bars because it is trying to figure out where they all are (for later reference). Tell me if this helps
    It was the latest software when it was manufactured, but they have no way of controlling how long it has sat on a shelf.  The first step in the instructions is to download the Connect software and it will prompt you to update the first time you dock the watch.
  • jordanalrawijordanalrawi Posts: 7 [Legendary Explorer]
    True but my point is that the time you set manually on the watch doesn't matter, everything is synced to the computer. Ergo taking this watch out of the box and trying to immediately use it won't work.
  • tfarabaughtfarabaugh Posts: 16,691
    Superusers
    jordanalrawi wrote:
    True but my point is that the time you set manually on the watch doesn't matter, everything is synced to the computer. Ergo taking this watch out of the box and trying to immediately use it won't work.
    True, but they specifically tell you that you need to first download the software to register and setup the watch.
  • chrissnnchrissnn Posts: 8 [Legendary Explorer]
    With the latest software 1.8.25 this problem still exists. It has been 1 year since this problem has been posted on this forum and so far it has not been solved by Tomtom..
  • btt128btt128 Posts: 76 [Prominent Wayfarer]
    Add me to the list.

    Latest software, multisport cardio.

    I set off and ran at low 6 min miles, after a mile the avg pace was showing over 6:30.

    When I reached a flatter bit and was doing 6:15 instant, the average that was already at 6:30 was increasing. If I was really doing 6:15 it should have been coming down.

    Had a strange issue the other day where it had me up at 10 min miles instant, even though there was no way I was going that slowly.

    What is wrong with Tomtom? How many fundamental things do they want to get wrong on an otherwise good idea.

    I'm seriously thinking of cutting my losses and moving to Garmin or someone else. If it cant even show you instant pace then whats the point of it.

    I'm more concerned that there doesn't appear to be any kind of official response on this, for a 'bug' that appears to be at least a year old.

    Can one of the TomTom mods please provide a response to this.
  • WillCWWillCW Posts: 584 [Renowned Wayfarer]
    Yes, me too. Displayed pace is way off compared to my simultaneously alternate record using a phone app (Digifit iCardio). But when I upload and look at the pace profile it appears correctly and identical to my simultaneous alternate recording. So it is just display update rather than record. But that is not much use when you want to pace train. Furthermore, the Strava and MapMyfitness pace profile display is far better than MySports. Come on TomTom, sort it out.
  • gl00gl00 Posts: 965 [Revered Pioneer]
    for btt128: this is an extreme case, your watch might require a factory reset. The issue being discussed here is mainly that the instant pace is slow to update under certain circumstances, or seem to be stuck in a pace zone when you accelerate or decelerate, your issue seems to be different as your watch doesn't seem to display anything close to reality.
  • gl00gl00 Posts: 965 [Revered Pioneer]
    for the others : well... someone up there wrote it, it's been over a year now, the issue has not been solved, I guess we have to live with it...

    here's a trick I use: the watch only gets stuck in a pace zone if the change of pace is under 1mn/km (well... that s what I found out...), so whenever I realize the pace is off, I either stop running for a couple secs or speed up drastically for a dozen seconds. As soon as the pace starts changing, I resume my former pace, and here I am with responsive pace again (for as long as it lasts...)!

    I know it would be better if tomtom could solve this, but for those who are stuck with the issue...
  • Johngl85Johngl85 Posts: 10 [Outstanding Explorer]
    Maybe we're being a bit critical on TomTom? Maybe this feature is not as easy to implement as we all think. Beaming satellite signals back and forth, calculating time and distance in a fraction of a second, all done within a small chip - I imagine that to be quite an engineering feat. 
  • WillCWWillCW Posts: 584 [Renowned Wayfarer]
    Johngl85 wrote:
    Maybe we're being a bit critical on TomTom? Maybe this feature is not as easy to implement as we all think. Beaming satellite signals back and forth, calculating time and distance in a fraction of a second, all done within a small chip - I imagine that to be quite an engineering feat. 
    We being critical because they have the implementation wrong. The recorded pace is correct; it is only the displayed rate that is wrong. So the data is there in the watch but poor coding does not update the display anywhere need as fast as required. Not a failed engineering feat just failed coding. Sort it out TomTom
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