Multisports- Current pace vs average pace completely off - Page 5 — TomTom Community

Multisports- Current pace vs average pace completely off

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  • J_W_RJ_W_R Posts: 43 [Prominent Wayfarer]
    Sorry to revive an old topic, but I'm not happy with the instantaneous pace at all, even with new firmware. The algorithm is just not working right. If I do intervals and I take off a little fast and slow down to my interval pace, it will show the initial peak pace for a long time without updates. Completely useless.

    Also, the instantaneous pace is, as previously mentioned, continuously underestimating actual pace. This is also in the algorithm, see embedded screendump. I ran 4:12 /km avg, but when I pick an instantaneous pace of around this speed (4:13/km, could not find exact match), I find that the large majority of pace points are below this level. This behaviour is systematic on all runs, and stems from the algorithmic calculations during the race.

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    Please, TomTom tech people, give us a reply on this.
  • Joshua-McLJoshua-McL Posts: 8 [Legendary Explorer]
    I am seeing the exact same issues with pace not adjusting quick enough.
  • EricularEricular Posts: 5 [Master Explorer]
    Sadly to say, I sold my TomTom watch on eBay, and put the money towards a Garmin 310XT.  I'm loving the new watch.  Much better, and no instant pace issues like my TomTom watch.  I was tired of waiting for a fix for something that shouldn't be that difficult to implement.
  • DriceDrice Posts: 17 [Outstanding Explorer]
    I confirm, same problem<br>Watch useless for training based on established paces
  • lucafulucafu Posts: 9 [Legendary Explorer]
    I'm having the same problem. I own a few other gps and NEVER (yes, I say NEVER) had this kind of problem.

    I think this is a BASIC function of any gps watch. I know that it is almost impossible to get a perfectly accurate instant pace, but most of the gps watches out there can do a very good job.

    Soon I'll post a video showing the instant pace difference between TomTom Runner, my mobile phone and a hiking focused gps, not made specifically for runners, but that can be used by runners too.

    I think it's a shame that a company like TomTom can't fix a problem like this... I always thought that TomTom was the best company in gps market but it seems like I was wrong.
  • magnezkomagnezko Posts: 29 [Outstanding Wayfarer]
    More sadly, it's just the algorithm calculating the instant pace and displaying it during the workout. I say sadly because to my understanding, it does not affect anything else and it so important to many of us. The pace feedback during the workout is really almost useless.
    C'mon TomTom, GPS data is just perfect. Is it such a big deal to display an average of sum of distances between last six position readings divided 5?
  • sanguissanguis Posts: 22 [Outstanding Wayfarer]
    I'm getting close to selling mine too, pretty much solely because of this issue.

    Can TT give us any guidance on when this problem will be resolved?
  • JimbodarJimbodar Posts: 1 [Apprentice Traveler]
    I've just received a replacement Multisport watch after mine froze. Went for my first run and noticed I couldn't see the av pace/speed or current pace/speed when scrolling through display? Has it been turned off at TT HQ?!? I was still getting a distance value and it seemed pretty accurate. after upload the pace/speed graph appeared, just couldn't see it during the workout....I'm heading toward the idea of cutting my losses on this watch too after a few problems along the way. I only bought the original about 6-7 months ago so I guess I should be able to return it to the point of sale??
  • PappaChangoPappaChango Posts: 8 [Legendary Explorer]
    I've given up on TomTom giving any sort of guidance on a solution to this issue.  As a software developer, I am VERY frustrated with this issue because it should be an easy fix to whatever method(s) are calculating this pace.  There is NO reason that this issue should have been sitting out here for this long.  This is how technology dies - word of mouth and apathy from the current customer base.  

    Also, I would sell mine but I would feel guilty for taking money for such a worthless piece of junk.
  • DriceDrice Posts: 17 [Outstanding Explorer]
    The problem of updating SLOW of pace Instant is making me mad.
    A function that should be of BASE.
    Could anyone (TOMTOM) give directions about?
    Is it possible that in one year have not been able to fix?
    At this rate I propose a CLASS ACTION
  • tfarabaughtfarabaugh Posts: 16,684
    Superusers
    Jimbodar wrote:

    I've just received a replacement Multisport watch after mine froze. Went for my first run and noticed I couldn't see the av pace/speed or current pace/speed when scrolling through display? Has it been turned off at TT HQ?!? I was still getting a distance value and it seemed pretty accurate. after upload the pace/speed graph appeared, just couldn't see it during the workout....I'm heading toward the idea of cutting my losses on this watch too after a few problems along the way. I only bought the original about 6-7 months ago so I guess I should be able to return it to the point of sale??
    Either you need to go into the Metrics screen for the activity and turn on pace/speed or you need to do a factory reset to enable it.  There have been others who have had limited metrics visible and the reset restored them.
  • lucafulucafu Posts: 9 [Legendary Explorer]
    Ok, as I told a few weeks ago I made a video showing how does the TomTom Runner Cardio manage instant pace comparing with another non-running specific GPS device, in this case a generic outdoor (more bike oriented) device named TwoNav Ultra by CompeGPS. This non-running specific device shows instant pace with much more precision (yes, you can use it for running but it is very big and it is a device mainly oriented to maps and bike riding).

    Here you can watch the videos: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDf3GUt45znUWD69t9JI9aqSN8Rlc-H2B

    Everyone here knows that the instant pace in TomTom Runner is a mess, it doesn't work well and refresh very slowly making it almost useless. But it seems like the people at TomTom are the only ones who didn't realize that instant pace bug needs a fix quickly.

    Yes we all know that the faster it refresh the more likely it will display inconsistent data between two different pace speed but the actual instant pace algorithm of the TomTom Runner is totally useless.
  • sanguissanguis Posts: 22 [Outstanding Wayfarer]
    Has there been any update on if / when this fundamental flaw will be fixed? MikkoK?
  • PappaChangoPappaChango Posts: 8 [Legendary Explorer]
    After waiting for months for TomTom to even acknowledge this as a problem, I have given up and purchased a Garmin 220. It was so nice to see my pace respond to my change of pace and that average pace and actual pace where related to one another. I even went into my local running store and showed them this thread and implored them against selling the TomTom until this issue is addressed. I am a high school coach and about 30 new kids purchase a GPS watch based on my advice. I am now a strong anti-TomTom evangelist because of the terrible communication from TomTom on this issue.
  • lucafulucafu Posts: 9 [Legendary Explorer]
    I think I found a workaround to the istant pace bug

    It is just a workaround so it will work but with some downside: just choose bike riding activity (instead of running) and choose to show pace (instead of speed). You will notice that the instant pace will refresh almost instantly as expected!!! :D

    The downsides: 1) if you don't have the multi-sport you can't use this workaround 2) the activity will be recorded as bike riding so you will have to enter in MapMyRun or Strava or what-else and change the activity type to running

    So it seems that in running mode the watch use the accelerometer to detect speed changes (maybe to preserve battery?) but it can't detect small speed variations. It is just a theory but it is clear now that at TomTom they  could easily fix the problem if they would
  • sanguissanguis Posts: 22 [Outstanding Wayfarer]
    Interesting. I'll have to try it out.

    MikkoK, has there been any update on if / when this fundamental flaw will be fixed?  (hint: I'm going to keep asking)
  • tfarabaughtfarabaugh Posts: 16,684
    Superusers
    lucafu wrote:

    I think I found a workaround to the istant pace bug

    It is just a workaround so it will work but with some downside: just choose bike riding activity (instead of running) and choose to show pace (instead of speed). You will notice that the instant pace will refresh almost instantly as expected!!! :D

    The downsides: 1) if you don't have the multi-sport you can't use this workaround 2) the activity will be recorded as bike riding so you will have to enter in MapMyRun or Strava or what-else and change the activity type to running

    So it seems that in running mode the watch use the accelerometer to detect speed changes (maybe to preserve battery?) but it can't detect small speed variations. It is just a theory but it is clear now that at TomTom they  could easily fix the problem if they would
    That is a very interesting observation, I will have to try it out (although I have never had an issue with the pace being off, I tends to run at a very steady pace so it is less noticeable and my focus is on my overall pace, not my instant pace generally).
  • tfarabaughtfarabaugh Posts: 16,684
    Superusers
    sanguis wrote:

    Interesting. I'll have to try it out.

    MikkoK, has there been any update on if / when this fundamental flaw will be fixed?  (hint: I'm going to keep asking)
    I am not sure TomTom considers it to be a fundamental flaw.  It is only an issue for a small number of users and is a function of the algorithm they chose (they leaned towards smoothness over timeliness, so you get a smoother pace without as much jumping around but it takes longer to catch up).  For people running at a steady pace or looking at their overall pace (like me) it is not really an issue and certainly not a fundamental flaw.  And TomTom (or any other manufacturer) is not going to commit publicly to what they are planning on in future updates as it can create unmanageable user expectations (I believe a primary reason why the road map was removed) so repeated asking will not get you anywhere.
  • sanguissanguis Posts: 22 [Outstanding Wayfarer]
    tfarabaugh wrote:
    sanguis wrote:
    Interesting. I'll have to try it out.

    MikkoK, has there been any update on if / when this fundamental flaw will be fixed?  (hint: I'm going to keep asking)
    I am not sure TomTom considers it to be a fundamental flaw.  It is only an issue for a small number of users and is a function of the algorithm they chose (they leaned towards smoothness over timeliness, so you get a smoother pace without as much jumping around but it takes longer to catch up).  For people running at a steady pace or looking at their overall pace (like me) it is not really an issue and certainly not a fundamental flaw.  And TomTom (or any other manufacturer) is not going to commit publicly to what they are planning on in future updates as it can create unmanageable user expectations (I believe a primary reason why the road map was removed) so repeated asking will not get you anywhere.
    Perhaps they shouldn't promise "real time speed and pace" tracking then...? It is misleading.

    I'll agree to disagree with you about the definition of a fundamental flaw. Having to maintain one's pace so that it can be tracked accurately doesn't sound like a properly functioning unit to me - nor is it what I expect from, or have experienced with any other gps watches.

    If they're not going to fix (or even acknowledge) the issue any time soon then IMO they need to be honest and share that information so that folks like myself can determine whether to return the unit or not. My patience is wearing thin.
  • tfarabaughtfarabaugh Posts: 16,684
    Superusers
    sanguis wrote:
    tfarabaugh wrote:
    sanguis wrote:

    Interesting. I'll have to try it out.

    MikkoK, has there been any update on if / when this fundamental flaw will be fixed?  (hint: I'm going to keep asking)
    I am not sure TomTom considers it to be a fundamental flaw.  It is only an issue for a small number of users and is a function of the algorithm they chose (they leaned towards smoothness over timeliness, so you get a smoother pace without as much jumping around but it takes longer to catch up).  For people running at a steady pace or looking at their overall pace (like me) it is not really an issue and certainly not a fundamental flaw.  And TomTom (or any other manufacturer) is not going to commit publicly to what they are planning on in future updates as it can create unmanageable user expectations (I believe a primary reason why the road map was removed) so repeated asking will not get you anywhere.
    Perhaps they shouldn't promise "real time speed and pace" tracking then...? It is misleading.

    I'll agree to disagree with you about the definition of a fundamental flaw. Having to maintain one's pace so that it can be tracked accurately doesn't sound like a properly functioning unit to me - nor is it what I expect from, or have experienced with any other gps watches.

    If they're not going to fix (or even acknowledge) the issue any time soon then IMO they need to be honest and share that information so that folks like myself can determine whether to return the unit or not. My patience is wearing thin.
    There is no such thing as true real time tracking as it is always done in arrears, based on a set number of data points over a given length of time.  The artistry is in getting the right balance of the data points to maximize accuracy while minimizing lag.  Perhaps TomTom has not done the best job here, but they are calculating it, even if it is not to the level accuracy or timeliness that all users would like. 

    You need to decide whether to keep or return the watch based on the feature set available today, not on what is promised in the future.  If the watch does not give you what you want today then I would return it rather than wait for a possible future upgrade.
  • lucafulucafu Posts: 9 [Legendary Explorer]
    But if instant pace in this watch doesn't work as instant pace they shouldn't advertise it! It's more similar to an average pace in the last lap than instant pace... And if it doesn't work the ability to create repetitions and training workout is very reduced. For instance I use to run 1 km at 4:00 min/km and another km at 5:00 min/km and repeat it all 3 times : with TomTom runner I never know if I'm running at 4:00 or 5:00 or whatever till the end of the lap!
  • gl00gl00 Posts: 965 [Revered Pioneer]
    lucafu : in my experience, the tomtom watches have issues updating instant pace only when the difference of change in pace is below 1mn per km (that s an estimate). if you accelerate faster, say from 5mn/km to 3:30mn/km or 5:30 to 4:00/km the watch will update instant pace a LOT faster (I actually do interval training with the tomtom and it will give me an accurate instant pace if I maintain a given pace for about 20 secs, which is better than my ambit 2S which will never update fast enough to give me my pace when doing 30/30 splits...) 

    note that you don t have to run the whole km at a slower or faster pace than you aim to, but try decelerating for a few seconds before accelerating, and you ll probably find that your watch can actually show instant pace quite accurately... I think the issue is that tomtom tried to smooth instant pace a little too much and gave way too wide a threshold before smoothing is disabled... 

    try it and let us know how it goes: hopefully this will work for you ! :-)
  • mikefatmikefat Posts: 5 [Master Explorer]
    I sold my tomtom multisport for this mistake, now I have a Garmin 910XT and once a Geonaute much cheaper and do not have any problem with the current pace, for me it is the most important thing to train !!! do not remove importance. I wish to be with Tomtom long time, I really like the participation and dynamism TT has, but did not compensate me.
  • hkontrohkontro Posts: 9 [Legendary Explorer]
    gl00: I agree that the instant pace works better when the change in pace is big enough (although even then not always, during long workouts it seems to get stuck). But it should work well in all types of training.

    For example, the current algorithm does not work at all in these kind of workouts:

    1. Acceleration from basic pace 5:30 min/km -> 5:00 -> 4:30 -> 4:00, 1 min at each pace, then a 1 min recovery jog at basic pace. Repeated 8-15 times.

    2. Long tempo at target pace 4:30 min/km -  after running for a while, the watch does not react if you start dropping out from you target pace (running 4:45 min/km) or running too fast (4:20), but it keeps showing something like 4:32-4:28, not much different from average pace.

    Why on earth would you design an instant pace that does not display subtle changes in pace? The average pace and the lap pace are already there to tell your long-term average pace, there's not need for a "third" average pace. Everyone knows that an instant pace can be a bit jumpy at times, but it's acceptable as long as it reacts somehow to you actual acceleration/deceleration. It is not acceptable to show a long-term average pace as an instant pace.

    I gave up on TomTom Runner a long time ago and use it only for easy runs where I'm not interested in pace (or just need the average pace). For all other workouts I use my old trustworthy Garmin 210, that shows a quickly reacting instant pace.
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