Multisports- Current pace vs average pace completely off - Page 3 — TomTom Community

Multisports- Current pace vs average pace completely off

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  • ahdellgrenahdellgren Posts: 3 [Neophyte Traveler]
    I've returned mine after testing on the track. serious issue with pace smoothing algo. Tomtom claims they are averaging over 10 sek, but during my run's it never could "slow down" the pace for more than 30 sek./ km from the fastest pace.

    Got the Garmin FR220, witch also makes average over 10 sek, to avoid the jumpiness i pace, BUT this works!

    Sorry to say Tomtom i liked the fysics and workout-sharing of the watch but your pace calculating's way off.
  • jaszczombjaszczomb Posts: 68 [Renowned Trailblazer]
    nmrunner wrote:
    I've given up on the issue.  I am returning my watch for a replacement and will be selling it as new when I receive it.  I have ordered the new Garmin FR620. Tom Tom has no intention of fixing the pace issue, all they do is run you around in circles telling you to restore the watch to factory defaults and reinstall the firmware.  The support I've received is delayed and pathetic. 
    Not sure if you make good deal here since every watch has similiar problems including fr620 (example). So if you really care about your instant pace you have to also buy and calibrate footpod to have quite accurate values. In other ways you will get same results as in tomtom (you can search garmin forums for more informations)
  • EricularEricular Posts: 5 [Master Explorer]
    jaszczomb wrote:
    Not sure if you make good deal here since every watch has similiar problems including fr620 (example). So if you really care about your instant pace you have to also buy and calibrate footpod to have quite accurate values. In other ways you will get same results as in tomtom (you can search garmin forums for more informations)
    Wow, that's too bad.  I ran with a Garmin 305 for a couple years and instant pace worked perfectly.  5 seconds to respond to a pace change at most, with no problems jumping around.

    If I'm checking my instant pace, it's to see what my pace is at this very instant - as in, within the last 3-5 seconds - probably because I just changed it, or it feels too fast/slow.  

    I do like the "lap pace" addition of the latest update, and hopefully with that addition the instant pace smoothing algorithm can be made much more aggressive.  The instant pace feature as-is is currently useless, as it's not really telling me anything accurate at all.
  • TomWWTomWW Posts: 227 [Renowned Wayfarer]
    I notice that when I ride on bike without the S/C sensor, my Multisport current and average pace is accurate (same readings as my bike computer).  So, this tells me that watch is capable of giving a good current pace reading using gps, but either we need to run faster or watch needs to be adjusted somehow for the slower pace.
  • nmrunnernmrunner Posts: 5 [Master Explorer]
    I don't think you understand how inaccurate the current pace is on the TomTom. I've run with my wife's FR610 and it is very accurate, even without a foot pod. We live in a very open area and satellite reception is great. Her FR610 is within 1-2 seconds/mile when comparing to my phone on runkeeper or strava, but my TomTom is anywhere from 20-40 seconds off.
  • GianphoGianpho Posts: 6 [Master Traveler]
    I have the same problem.there are possibilities that the detection of the current peace is improved ?
  • GianphoGianpho Posts: 6 [Master Traveler]
    up...
  • EricularEricular Posts: 5 [Master Explorer]
    The worst part is that this wouldn't be very difficult for TomTom to fix.  Better yet, create a setting where the user can select the aggressiveness of the smoothing algorithm, either a Low/Medium/High deal or else selecting the # of seconds instant pace is averaged across (5-30 seconds or something).  
  • hkontrohkontro Posts: 9 [Legendary Explorer]
    Ericular wrote:
    The worst part is that this wouldn't be very difficult for TomTom to fix.  Better yet, create a setting where the user can select the aggressiveness of the smoothing algorithm, either a Low/Medium/High deal or else selecting the # of seconds instant pace is averaged across (5-30 seconds or something).  
    Agreed. Just a simple algorithm, like calculating the pace based on last previous 15 seconds, would work better than the current one. Now they have tried to make something too fine and complicated, and the result is not useful in real life with varying paces.
  • EricularEricular Posts: 5 [Master Explorer]
    hkontro wrote:
    Agreed. Just a simple algorithm, like calculating the pace based on last previous 15 seconds, would work better than the current one. Now they have tried to make something too fine and complicated, and the result is not useful in real life with varying paces.
    Exactly.  If I go from 9:00min/mile to 14:00min/mile pace, it senses it within 3-5 seconds.  If I go from 9:00min/mile to 8:00min/mile, it can take minutes(!) to fully adjust.  I want it to take 3-5 seconds just like the big jumps do.  If I look at my watch, it's because I'm adjusting my pace and trying to hit an exact target.  With how it is currently, the feedback I get from the watch is useless.  Lap pace is better, but I have to force short laps to make it useful.  
  • gl00gl00 Posts: 965 [Revered Pioneer]
    @Jürgen: Ericular's description of the issue matches exactly what I found out. Testing the tomtom agains an ambit2 and iphone with Gipis app installed, I found out that tomtom's algorythm great when it comes to big changes of pace (the ambit2 is very very close, but tomtom seems better as the results seem to match more closely the ones I see in software, post run), but the worst of the 3 when it comes to changes smaller than 1mn/km... hopefully this gets fixed...
  • GianphoGianpho Posts: 6 [Master Traveler]
    Run without reference to the instantaneous velocity, for my workout, is useless. I'm not an expert who is aware of the speed without even looking at the clock, then a marathon of 42 km I need to know the pace at km so I can have it set for the entire race. I used the app for iphone Rutastic, and it worked fine.
    I hope that Tom Tom will solve this serious problem before the possible.THANK
  • gl00gl00 Posts: 965 [Revered Pioneer]
    Gianpho:

    the issue with instant pace is irritating but for races you'll most likely use average pace, which is good even when instant pace gets "stuck", you can even use autolap if you want a more precise breakdown (like average pace every Km for example) and for training, the tomtom behaves better than average when doing intervals (big changes of pace).

    The only problem is with small changes of pace, hence it will most likely be an issue for people who run in hilly areas and want to know their instant pace: it has no issue if you are running at a steady pace on flat ground.

    (but otherwise, yes, I nevertheless think that this issue should be a top priority fix! :) )
  • neiltrineiltri Posts: 14 [Outstanding Explorer]
    I had a real frustration with instant pace when I first acquired the Tom Tom (and it was my first GPS watch).  Was I expecting too much of current technology, had I not researched enough etc.  I now find thought that instant pace is not really relevant to me.  

    My race distances are mainly HM.  A lot of my training is either longer steady runs or 5km/10km tempo sessions.  I tend mainly to use heart rate to train and to race.  I know what HR I can support and maintain for given distances and so rely upon that.  For example my recent HM I ran with my HR target of 150 bpm and tried to say with a variance of no more than +/- 3.  I knew that too much time above say 153 bpm then I would start to going into too much deficit to maintain but below say 147 bpm I was "cruising".  

    Of course towards the end the last say 2km I did push on more but that was by feel for my running and knowing I was close enough to the finish not to have to worry about my HR creeping up higher.  Last 10km tempo training session I used a target rate of 157 bpm again trying to stay +/- 3 bpm.  

    I try and discipline myself not to use the pace, instant or average when running because I know from experience and trial and error what my HR bands are and so in a way pace is an irrelevant benchmark as I run and only relevant afterwards. 

    HR based training is not for everyone but it works well for me.  That said I do understand and appreciate the frustrations people have with instant pace stats
  • aheicheaheiche Posts: 3 [Neophyte Traveler]
    This issue has been discussed for over a year without a single response from Tom Tom.  I reached out to them and have gotten nowhere.  My Garmin (405 & 310XT) as well as various running phone running apps Ive tried havent had issues work just fine.

    Any GPS running watch should be able to handle this and the Tom Tom product cant.  Its indicative of the quality of product they put out and the support they are willing to offer to products theyve sold.  

    DO NOT BUY THIS WATCH if you havent already.
  • Johngl85Johngl85 Posts: 10 [Outstanding Explorer]
    But I must say, TomTom is the only GPS watch that I've had that continuely updates its firmware free of charge, months and years after you purchase it.

    This allows you to buy the item once and continually get improvements. That said, some of the basic features should've been flawless from the beginning.
  • tom3k5tom3k5 Posts: 7 [Master Explorer]
    aheiche wrote:
    Any GPS running watch should be able to handle this and the Tom Tom product cant.  Its indicative of the quality of product they put out and the support they are willing to offer to products theyve sold.  

    DO NOT BUY THIS WATCH if you havent already.
    I'm sorry but this is not the issue to decide about the sport watch for many people (eg for me) and it could be misleading.

    I have bought the watch and I'm very plased with it and with the performance.

    GPS is better than in my iPhone 5s with endomondo (stright lines instead of zig-zags).

    Ofcourse current pace could be more responsible/ quick (with the option to set up the time parameters) to update but it is enough sufficient to adjust your running speed ofcourse if you are running more than few meteres.

    Avarage from the last 30sec is fine to chieck your spped and accelerate/deaccelerate during the longer trenings
  • tom3k5tom3k5 Posts: 7 [Master Explorer]
    WRONG<br>after run more than 100km along endomondo training program with this watch I could say that current pace is wrong and there is another element missing - lap splits dyring interval training<br><br>FACTS<br>If you have intervals like 1km/1min with pace 4:50/5:50 there is no possibility to check and adjust to current pace displayed by the watch, especially the rest ones.<br><br>MISSING<br>Moreover the watch do not mark interwals with lap splots so you are not able to say if your avarage pace is ok in the given interval.<br><br>SUMMARY<br>With that slow update to the current pace and no split for laps within the interval training running popular training plans like those in endomondo is NO GO for casual runners with endomondo training plans<br><br>CONCLUSION:<br>software update IS REQUIRED with change in current pace algoritm and with lap mark/split within the interval training.
  • nmrunnernmrunner Posts: 5 [Master Explorer]
    Really enjoying my fr620. No more heart rate spikes to 210 beats within 2 minutes of running, pace is accurate. Took Tomtom a month to replace my watch this time but I finally got it back. Going to sell it since it's new in package with hrm.
  • liquid_mermerliquid_mermer Posts: 7 [Legendary Explorer]
    Dear runners, developers, cyclists.

    I work in the signal processing field (holding Masters degree) and I can assure you that whatever smoothing algorithm TomTom is using to get the instant pace stable, they're missing the point completely. For running it doesn't respond to sublte changes in pace as is required during training, however if you bike/drive and change the speed quickly it picks it up OK. I think that for running a sepparate algorithm is due to be implemented that just averages the last several seconds worth of data (it is not that noisy by plotting the data points in space). However with the 1.7.25 update this didn't happen. I am very dissapointed with my purchase of the tomtom multisport as I don't want to be finding workarounds using lap average pace, I want it to just work.

    Thank you for the time.

    Martin (multisport owner)
  • eelcoeelco Posts: 1 [Apprentice Traveler]
    Hello All,

     

    Have The Tom Tom Cardio for two weeks and find this watch a complete disappointment. 

     

    - Pace and speed are unreliable. They seem to freeze whenever the GPS signal is off giving you falls feedback on your current speed. Making efficient training runs impossible not to mention a race where planning is crucial in getting the ultimate race-pace.

    - GPS signal is very sensitive for trees. running a trial run in Dutch woodlands is impossible but also in urban lanes with some trees  it not doing its job.

    - Hart rate signal is failing during interval training and refuses to return. Probably the intense movement makes it lose contact with my wrist. Although the strap is so tight that it's uncomfortable and leaves marks in the skin.

     

    I'm going to return this watch to the reseller as it isnot  living up its specs.

    This  is nearly a walking GPS-logger with a hart rate sensor that sometimes works.

     

    Eelco
  • MikkoKMikkoK Posts: 23,905 Retired Community Managers and Staff
    Hi Eelco,

    Welcome to the forum!

    I'm sorry to hear of your issues with your new watch! The issue with the heart rate measurement has been discussed at http://discussions.tomtom.com/t5/GPS-Sport-watches/tomtom-cardio-heart-rate-fails-during-training/td-p/804299

    I'd recommend you to contact Customer Service to check whether you're experiencing a hardware issue.

    Cheers, Mikko
  • liquid_mermerliquid_mermer Posts: 7 [Legendary Explorer]
    Ok, today I went for a run setting my multisport to cycle and displaying the current pace instead of speed. I have noticed that in cycle mode the current pace updates very naturally and as what is expected during running (with a small delay of 2-3 seconds). So TomTom developers, please use the cycling algorithm for current pace in running mode, I'm sure most of us will be happy with it.<br>Martin
  • swatswat Posts: 3 [Neophyte Traveler]
    Current pace is problematic for me too.  It consistently tells me I'm running faster than I am when compared to my average pace.  I can be checking my watch frequently and my current pace consistently shows me running at, for example, 5:00/km, but my average pace shows 5:18.  It's particularly irritating when trying to run in pace zones:  For example I'll set it to a zone of 4:00-4:20/km for a 5k run and I will never leave this zone, except sometimes running slightly faster, but mostly staying towards the 4:00-4:10.  But my average pace shows over 4:20, and even 4:30 by the end of the run.  It is also very slow to update the current pace if I have to stop to cross a road for example, dropping to about 10:30/km, and then taking 30 seconds or more to get back to a reasonably accurate reading.  <font size="4">THIS NEEDS A FIX!!! </font> I'm running firmware 1.7.25.  HE3154I-00091-C.
  • aheicheaheiche Posts: 3 [Neophyte Traveler]
    If you just purchased this watch, RETURN IT. Read online and you will see we've complained for well over a year about this and nothing is done by TOM TOM. You're right, it doesn't work although some folks who don't understand how running watches function will try to convince you otherwise.
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